Curse

Divineshadows · Apr 03, 2006, 08:36 PM // 20:36

My guild had previously been using an exact copy of Spectral Agony's [sA] build. Their build consisted of a hammer and axe warrior, 2 dom mesmers (one with martyr), a curse necro, a boon prot, a WoH infuse, and a water ele flag runner. While we were mildly successful with it, we were having difficulty splitting effectively with it. So, I have done some redesign in an attempt to get a pressure build that is made for splitting (because I really want my guildmates to learn how to split well) while still not totally gimped if we choose to fight in a 7v7 confrontation at the stand.

Please provide any suggestions you can that you think would make this build better. It may help to know that my guild's home hall is the Warrior's Isle.

W/E
Eviscerate {E}
Executioner's
Rush
Frenzy
Shield's Up
Healing Signet
Shock
Rez Sig

Axe - 16 (12+4)
Tactics - 11 (5+1)
Strength - 9 (8+1)
Air - 2

W/R
Charge {E}
Tiger's Fury
Sever Artery
Gash
Final Thrust
Bull's Strike
Healing Signet
Rez Signet

Sword - 16 (12+4)
Beast Mastery - 9
Tactics - 10 (9+1)
Strength - 4 (3+1)

Me/Mo
Energy Surge {E}
Energy Burn
Mind Wrack
Distortion
Shatter Enchantment
Drain Enchantment
Cry of Frustration
Ressurect

Domination - 14 (12+2)
Inspiration - 11 (10+1)
Fast Casting - 9 (8+1)
Illusion - 3 (2+1)

Me/Mo
Migraine {E}
Conjure Phantasm
Imagined Burden
Mantra of Persistence
Inspired Hex
Drain Enchantment
Power Drain
Draw Conditions

Inspiration - 15 (11+4)
Fast Casting - 9 (8+1)
Illusion - 12 (11+2)
Protection Prayers - 3
Domination - 3 (2+1)

I am wondering if 14 inspiration, 12 illusion, 11 fast cast would be better to get the cast time on migraine down?

E/Mo
Ether Prodigy {E}
Heal Party
Healing Breeze
Blurred Vision
Ice Spikes
Deep Freeze
Ice Prison
Armor of Mist

Water - 14 (12+2)
Energy Storage - 10 (9+1)
Healing - 9

Not sure that armor of mist is necessary for this flag running character. Would another snare like shard storm be better?

N/Mo
Offering of Blood {E}
Shadow of Fear
Faintheartedness
Life Siphon
Parasitic Bond
Shadow Strike
Heal Party
Rez Signet

Blood - 16 (12+4)
Curses - 10 (9+1)
Healing - 9
Soul Reaping - 4 (3+1)

Mo/Me
Energy Drain {E}
Inspired Hex
Divine Boon
Guardian
Reversal of Fortune
Mend Condition
Protective Spirit
Contemplation of Purity

Divine Favor - 16 (12+4)
Inspiration - 9
Protection - 10 (9+1)
Illusion - 3

Mo/Me
Word of Healing {E}
Inspired Hex
Drain Enchantment
Infuse Health
Healing Touch
Orison
Mend Condition
Holy Veil

Healing - 14 (12+2)
Inspiration - 10
Divine Favor - 9 (8+1)
Protection - 3 (2+1)

Vindexus · Apr 03, 2006, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Maybe you could outline more what gives you trouble when you split. Right now your build looks pretty solid for splitting and for dealing with splits.

twicky_kid · Apr 03, 2006, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Splitting is all tactics not build.

You have to know what you are splitting against and how many to send. Only way to figure that out is to play and practice.

Divineshadows · Apr 03, 2006, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Well, the previous build we had been running had endure pain on both of the warriors and lacked charge. We actually had little trouble with teams that split on us, but our bigger problem was facing spike teams. I am sure that we did not execute the build as well as Spectral Agony, but when we came across spike teams we encountered the following problems:

1. When attempting to split and gank, our gank squad had limited time in the opponent's base before being forced out.
2. The warriors required monk support thus limiting our split options.
3. Casting based spikes really hurt us, which is why I felt a migraine mesmer would be a better character than a 2nd dom memser.
4. We had a tendency to split too late after a spike team had already spiked a few of our team out at the stand having lost initiative and team morale (not necessarily flag morale).
5. Several of my guildmates use PvP characters and lack the ability to switch from a sup rune to a minor rune and back again mid match.

Vin,
Do you think this build is solid for a flagstand battle as well if for some reason the opponent reacts well to our splitting and we fail to gain a mismatch we are looking for?

JR · Apr 03, 2006, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

4. We had a tendency to split too late after a spike team had already spiked a few of our team out at the stand having lost initiative and team morale (not necessarily flag morale).

If you have a build that cannot handle spike 8 vs 8, then you need to be on the look-out for signs at the start of a battle.

If they have no warriors, it is probably spike; split. If you see a ranger using Read The Wind, it is probably spike; split. If you see multiple Elementalists, it is probably spike; split. And so on.

Better to split too early, than too late. Don't hesitate.

Neo-LD · Apr 03, 2006, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Just me personally, but whenever I am designing a build, Im aiming for perfection. A complete inability to 8v8 a spike build is a serious imperfection that would cause me to either

A) modify the build so it can 8v8 a spike, or
B) scrap the build and start over

Another personal philosophy: dont design builds to split first and ask questions later. Your build will be a one-trick-pony, with few ways to deal with The Fire Map, Effective Enemy-Counter-Split, etc. Its almost always better to be an 8v8 build first, with the ability to split if need be.

However, if you wish to design a split build *anyways*, then I have a philosophy on how to do that too. Designing a squad isnt so different than designing a Team Arenas build, except that you need to incorperate elements that normally are not required in TA. For example, your squad will need snare and speed buffs (things that are more or less optional in TA). Of course, the squad will also need the essential requirements of any 4v4 build: good direct damage, some mitigation, and a boon prot monk. Heres an example of a very general application of this:

W/E : Sword : Sever/Gash/Final/Charge/Healing Sig....
R/Me : Crip/Int : Cripshot/Dshot/Savshot/ApplyPoison...
E/Mo : Smite/Prot : Balths/Draw/LifeBond/Ether Prodigy/SoH/JI...
Mo/N : BoonProt : Guardian/Reversal/Boon/OoB...

All general requirements fulfilled: mass movement, snare, self sufficiency, good damage, good mitigation, etc. Now is the part where split builds get complicated... you have to try to make sure you can interchange characters between both squads, can split 5/3, 6/2, etc, and maybe even be able to merge into a somewhat respectable 8v8 build.

Vindexus · Apr 03, 2006, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Vin,
Do you think this build is solid for a flagstand battle as well if for some reason the opponent reacts well to our splitting and we fail to gain a mismatch we are looking for?

I think your build is fairly solid, although the addition of the migraine mesmer instead of another Surge/Burner seems odd to me.

As it stands your build is fairly good in a standard 8v8, but you don't really have that much anti spike. In which case you'll have to split, and I think you're build does that fairly well.

Edit: Removed the part where I was an idiot.

Teh Mighty Warrior · Apr 03, 2006, 11:51 PM // 23:51

He has a res besides the four res sigs, the me/mo is bringing resurrect.

IMO the migraine mesmer should be scrapped, and put in a second e-d or a r/mes crip shot.

Bio-Flame · Apr 04, 2006, 12:12 AM // 00:12

I'd agree on the migraine mesmer being scrapped.
It's not that it's a bad character but I think an e-denial Mesmer is so much better that's almost a crime not to use one.

Also, your Warrior/E only has 2 attack skills. If you have to split he'll lack some firepower I think. I'd trade Shields Up for another attack - but that's just me.

I *think* that overall you might lack some "punch" when you split. I am not sure since I've never played with it but looking at the build it seems to me that your attack will not be killing things too fast.

Obviously though, a 8vs8 build that can also split when needed won't be as strong as a 100% split design build.

Vindexus · Apr 04, 2006, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Just me personally, but whenever I am designing a build, Im aiming for perfection. A complete inability to 8v8 a spike build is a serious imperfection that would cause me to either

A) modify the build so it can 8v8 a spike, or
B) scrap the build and start over

I have to strongly disagree with this. When designing a build, you're designing one that wins, not one that wins 8v8.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Designing a squad isnt so different than designing a Team Arenas build, except that you need to incorperate elements that normally are not required in TA. For example, your squad will need snare and speed buffs (things that are more or less optional in TA). Of course, the squad will also need the essential requirements of any 4v4 build: good direct damage, some mitigation, and a boon prot monk. Heres an example of a very general application of this:

The thing is in GvG you can't always expect to 4v4. You shouldn't be designing "squads" you should be designing characters that are all interchangeable to make different combinations of squads.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

W/E : Sword : Sever/Gash/Final/Charge/Healing Sig....
R/Me : Crip/Int : Cripshot/Dshot/Savshot/ApplyPoison...
E/Mo : Smite/Prot : Balths/Draw/LifeBond/Ether Prodigy/SoH/JI...
Mo/N : BoonProt : Guardian/Reversal/Boon/OoB...

All general requirements fulfilled: mass movement, snare, self sufficiency, good damage, good mitigation, etc. Now is the part where split builds get complicated... you have to try to make sure you can interchange characters between both squads, can split 5/3, 6/2, etc, and maybe even be able to merge into a somewhat respectable 8v8 build.

Not a bad split squad in my opinion.

Neo-LD · Apr 04, 2006, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

I have to strongly disagree with this. When designing a build, you're designing one that wins, not one that wins 8v8.

With this part of my post I was referring to the sA-style build that the OP described. That build leans heavily towards 8v8, with split as a second thought. For an 8v8 build to lack the ability to compete against an entire class of 8v8 builds (spike) that is an unacceptable weakness.

Quote:

The thing is in GvG you can't always expect to 4v4. You shouldn't be designing "squads" you should be designing characters that are all interchangeable to make different combinations of squads.

The most successful split build I have yet seen, is so heavily designed as squads that it has virtually no ability to interchange characters at all – zP’s split. 4 monks, 2 in each squad. 3 warriors and a ranger. But you already know what zP split is.

I find that designing squads of four players that can handle most threats (built TA style) is more effective than scouting/guessing what players the opponent is sending where and trying to counter with your most perfect arrangement of players. In a perfect world, a team of eight interchangeable and versatile characters running a split would truly be an awesome force… but in practice they usually just end up out of position and outmaneuvered.

Wasteland Squidget · Apr 04, 2006, 03:21 AM // 03:21

The biggest advantage I see to the Migraine mes is having an extra snare. You really want to have several different snares in a split build, since it's all about limiting map mobility. I've won and lost battles in split builds because we snared key members of their own split squads when they were trying to regroup and fight us 8v8. Likewise, it's really useful when you're ganking and need to stop their monk from reaching the lord in time.

There's probably better choices than an illusion mesmer for that purpose, but the biggest issue I'd say you have is a lack of movement control. Removing the migraine mes leaves you just one character with snares, so you can't have one in both squads.

In the current e-denial heavy metagame I wouldn't run Tiger's Fury either. Too much chance that your warrior's gonna get caught in a stray Signet of Weariness and lose their attack speed boost when they need it. Frenzy is better in almost all cases anyway.

tafy69 · Apr 04, 2006, 06:07 AM // 06:07

I would definately keep that migrane mesmer in there, the build also has a necro hexer with OOB. But a Distortion on the Migrane Mesmer would be good.

The Split, well tbh I cant see any problems for you splitting in a multiple of ways. And the build is nice, you should do fine with it.

Divineshadows · Apr 04, 2006, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Thanks for the responses all. I have difficulty with trying to use frenzy on the sword warrior, because the character's skillbar is already crowded as is often the case with sword builds. Only ways I can think to use frenzy is to not have a cancel stance, to drop bull's strike for a cancel stance, or to move the rez sig to another character (dropping one of their skills) in order to fit the cancel stance. E-denial seems to punish frenzy warriors as well, because the enemy mesmers do pay attention and surge and burn frenzied warriors which hurts the monk's energy a lot more than had the warrior been using tiger's fury. So not really sure how to adjust this warrior's skillbar.

I would like a 3rd attack skill on the axe warrior as well, but in order to fit it I would have to drop Shields Up. My thinking behind this skill was to have some of those nasty NPC archer pin down shots miss and to reduce damage somewhat when going for the gank on the opponent's base. The opportunity cost means that it is in place of other good skills for this warrior like penetrating blow, axe rake, and bull's strike. Don't know what to do with this one.

My reasons for choosing this migraine mesmer included (let me know if this just idealistic crap):

1. Provide synergy with the water ele and curse necro to overpower the opposing team's hex removal.
2. Having the 36 second imagined burden snare that can be quickly covered with other hexes such as conjure phantasm or hexes from other allies. This can help slow the opponent's response to our split, snare a target to allow warriors to beat on him without kiting being as much of a factor, and as someone else mentioned snare a monk trying to run back to the lord when going for the gank.
3. I think that migraine can help disrupt casting based spikes. The opposing team would have to either clean up their migrained casters first with hex removal (including cover hexes), have any migrained casters start casting early giving my team an advanced notice of the spike, or have their spike timing be off. It also provides decent degen damage at 204 over the 34 second lifespan. I am probably being too idealistic on the powers of this skill.
4. Conjure phantasm for 24 seconds is 240 damage providing good pressure for low energy cost and casting time that can be spread to multiple targets. This means the opponent has to cast a lot of heal party to keep health high thus burning through a caster's energy that they would prefer to spend on more offensive things. Lots of degen means that the warriors' spike doesn't have to be as strong if they find an already weakened target.
5. A migraine mesmer does not have to extend as far forward as a dom mesmer to be effective. The enemy dom mesmers will move forward to cast on your monks at which time they can be migrained, conjured, and if need be burdened. Migraining the enemies dom mesmers means that they *should* have greater difficulty surging/burning our monks when they switch weapon sets to cast.

A crippling shot ranger could be used in place of the migraine mesmer, but conditions are quicker and easier to be removed than hexes and the crippled duration is short. Though he could snare multiple targets at once. A ranger also will not contribute to the hexes and cannot offer a support skill such as draw conditions (due to energy constraints), but could still pack drain enchant and even inspired hex. A 2nd domination mesmer would not be able to provide a snare, but could still help with hexes using skills like mind wrack and diversion.

Bio-Flame · Apr 04, 2006, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

I would like a 3rd attack skill on the axe warrior as well, but in order to fit it I would have to drop Shields Up. My thinking behind this skill was to have some of those nasty NPC archer pin down shots miss and to reduce damage somewhat when going for the gank on the opponent's base. The opportunity cost means that it is in place of other good skills for this warrior like penetrating blow, axe rake, and bull's strike. Don't know what to do with this one.

I'd focus on the opponent's players and pack a third attack rather than focusing on the NPC Archers.
You should either kill the first two archers you see - to allow a quick run out of the base if needed - or either have some other way to deal with Pin Down.
I wouldn't sacrifice my warrior's firepower over Pin Down, imo.